Battle Royale "State of the World" Complaint

[Carrion Queen]

Hello. I'd like to briefly talk about an issue that I have with the handling of the Battle Royale State of the World post here.


To give some background, when the second Battle Royale AU (known as BRAU2) was starting, I really wanted to do a good job at portraying whichever character I received. It's a bit of a tangent, but I generally try very hard to match characters I adopt, so I went into it with the same mindset. In order to do that, I decided to read the entire book as well as the spin-off manga "Angel's Border" and watch the movie in preparation for the game. The book is over 600 pages long, but it's a very good book. I mentioned I was reading it and when it was announced that the game would wisely be following the book's canon, people began asking me questions. I realized that there was no "State of the World" post, which contains setting information and typically accompanies the start of games of SOTF, and I asked the game runners if I could make one since one did not exist and people indicated it would be helpful. They said I could, and I took notes as I read the novel for information about the world, since the story takes place in an alternate history and information is spread out throughout the novel. Once I was done with all my notes, I tried to organize the post in a way that was easy to follow with like-information grouped together.

I did some other work like clip maps of the island I thought were helpful that I found in "Angel's Border" to put in that same thread, and I quickly made a classroom chart that didn't quite follow exactly what was in the book, but I tried my best to follow it and make it make sense in a very short time because once the classroom thread started with everyone in different seats, people were confused about who was where in the room. It wasn't a great map, I made it in about 30 minutes and gave the front desk a silly font. But it was used for reference for the scene by many writers.

When it was announced that the set up for Battle Royale would be available with all of the resources that the game runners for this game used for anyone who wanted to run the game in the future, I was a little taken aback. I wondered, did that include the resources I made/found and posted? No one asked my permission for those things to be given away, and I had done the work to compile them specifically for this game, to help the people who had been asking me for information. I really didn't like the idea of work I'd done being given away without asking me or being included as a package without my consent, so I removed all of it. I didn't like the idea of my work just being taken for granted as belonging to the staff, because it didn't. The information was untouched until that announcement.

I noticed that recently a post has been put up replacing entirely my notice that I had taken down my work (which used to contain my state of the world, now contains the director's post) which has much of the same information (even an attempt to piece back together the classroom chart with text) but without as much detail as well as the same maps I'd found. There's also a note that an unnamed user previous made a post with information (me).

Originally, there was a handler-crafted State of the World post, but the handler in question chose to remove those resources around the time that Endgame began. This post has been crafted as we still think that having some setting info easily on hand is useful for readers, and in case someone down the line wants to run another BRAU and use it.

There is a sense in this note that I've done something deleterious by removing my own work in a thread that I started, which I did because I felt it was wrong to promise something I'd made to unknown future people without my consent.

Also, there used to be a post under that from the moderator MuderWeasel that thanked me for all the work I had done with all the resources. That's gone now, which is disappointing because, well, people did seem to find them useful in playing the game that I made it for and I worked hard on it for everyone.


If either of the game runners would have just asked me if they could include my work as part of the game resources to run Battle Royale AUs or asked me why I'd removed my work and my images in the first place and said they would like them to be included, I would have reposted it (I do still have all of the information saved if it is desired). People who were active during the start of the game can tell you that I tried to help anyone who asked for it. I never turn away people who ask for my help, if I can.

In conclusion, I'm very disappointed in how this has been handled, and I'm not sure why no attempts were made to contact me about including my posts for future games and removing any positive acknowledgement for it.

[MurderWeasel]

Hello! I'd like to take a brief moment to address a couple of your concerns.

When it was announced that the set up for Battle Royale would be available with all of the resources that the game runners for this game used for anyone who wanted to run the game in the future, I was a little taken aback. I wondered, did that include the resources I made/found and posted? No one asked my permission for those things to be given away, and I had done the work to compile them specifically for this game, to help the people who had been asking me for information. I really didn't like the idea of work I'd done being given away without asking me or being included as a package without my consent, so I removed all of it. I didn't like the idea of my work just being taken for granted as belonging to the staff, because it didn't. The information was untouched until that announcement.

The announcement in question can be found here, and reads as follows:

Also, Yugi and I discussed this, and we're open-sourcing all our New BRAU prep if anyone else ever wants to run one on Mini. You're welcome to use any or all of our stuff, including our character assignment system, weapon list, island design, any fluff we have, and so on! If it's anything made by anyone else, though, please ask them before taking it verbatim. The only caveats are that we ask that you give credit, and we ask that you wait until at least one full calendar year has passed since the conclusion of the previous BRAU. But yeah, if you want an easy, mostly prefab AU without character applications to worry about to get you checked off as a capable AU host or whatever, you can use ours. Enjoy!

I figured it was pretty clearly implied that since you're neither Yugi nor myself, your permission would of course have been required to use anything you contributed (that's the whole point of that clause). Your concerns on this matter also could've been quickly addressed were they broached with us, but they were not.

I noticed that recently a post has been put up replacing entirely my notice that I had taken down my work (which used to contain my state of the world, now contains the director's post) which has much of the same information (even an attempt to piece back together the classroom chart with text) but without as much detail as well as the same maps I'd found. There's also a note that an unnamed user previous made a post with information (me).

Originally, there was a handler-crafted State of the World post, but the handler in question chose to remove those resources around the time that Endgame began. This post has been crafted as we still think that having some setting info easily on hand is useful for readers, and in case someone down the line wants to run another BRAU and use it.

There is a sense in this note that I've done something deleterious by removing my own work in a thread that I started, which I did because I felt it was wrong to promise something I'd made to unknown future people without my consent.

None of your posts have been touched—you can still find them as you left them, here, here, and here. The note that you quote was in fact added precisely out of a desire to clarify what had happened given the presence of your posts, as the phrasing of the blanked posts ("This information has been taken down.") leaves ambiguous who removed what was previously there. The staff of the NBRAU wanted it to be clear that we played no part in the removal. There's no intended implication of wrongdoing—if we had any issues with your removing your posts, we would have contacted you about it. Rather, as you chose to remove the resources you initially created, we chose to create our own replacement, and as it was now an in-house work we decided we might as well also add it to the resources on offer.

Also, there used to be a post under that from the moderator MuderWeasel that thanked me for all the work I had done with all the resources. That's gone now, which is disappointing because, well, people did seem to find them useful in playing the game that I made it for and I worked hard on it for everyone.

Unfortunately, I had to repurpose that post to serve as the new thread opening as the alternative—making an entirely new post—would've bumped Endgame off the recent posts section and generally caused formatting issues in the archive. I don't believe in messing with other folks' work, so I adjusted my own post—and not yours—to present the information. For the sake of transparency, the original text (which I stand by!) follows:

Huge thanks for compiling this! It makes it way easier for folks to approach some of the quirks of the setting without directly blasting through a 600-page novel.

Anyone who wants to bring in other novel info that is fun/could be useful is welcome to do so here too!

The thread you made was a useful resource and it was a shame to see it removed, but if folks want to take down the resources they make that is of course their prerogative.

If either of the game runners would have just asked me if they could include my work as part of the game resources to run Battle Royale AUs or asked me why I'd removed my work and my images in the first place and said they would like them to be included, I would have reposted it (I do still have all of the information saved if it is desired). People who were active during the start of the game can tell you that I tried to help anyone who asked for it. I never turn away people who ask for my help, if I can.

In conclusion, I'm very disappointed in how this has been handled, and I'm not sure why no attempts were made to contact me about including my posts for future games and removing any positive acknowledgement for it.

Hopefully this is now clearer! Your work was explicitly not included among that on offer, so asking your permission never crossed our minds—that would've been the job of anyone else wanting to use it in the future. Additionally, I'm a little confused by your complaint that you weren't contacted given that you at no point reached out regarding your concerns, which would have seen them quickly and easily alleviated. Since everything was removed without a word to us, we shrugged, assumed that you would've mentioned something if you wanted it known, and moved on. This thread is the first communication regarding the thread we've had in over a year, when we'd basically figured you'd closed the book on the NBRAU and moved on.

[Carrion Queen]

Hello and thank you very much for the prompt response.

I feel that there is a high likelihood that my state of the world would have been taken as information in a new set up even though there is a disclaimer that other materials need to have permission, especially with the term "verbatim," which would allow for paraphrasing. The materials I put together seems fairly important to the running of a future game, as evidenced by you trying to recreate them, even things that are not typically part of pre-game information like the classroom seating chart I made.

This was also a thread that I started, containing mostly users posts from DerArknight and I, which you chose to repurpose (and delete the nice comment). I think the appropriate steps would have been to either start a new thread or ask me about the removed content since I said previously I would have restored it if there had been a discussion. For the record, I’m still willing to restore all of the information with the more detailed State of the World that I made during my reading, if that’s what you’d like, with full permissions for future use.

I’ll concede that I didn’t communicate with you, because I am uncomfortable with the game runners and didn’t think my concerns would be addressed. I also didn’t think that the thread I started would be repurposed as it has been. In the past, staffers (Zee and Paige) have been dismissed without so much as acknowledgement for their hard work or even a public notice that they were no longer staff, so I didn’t feel that as just a normal user, I would be afforded consideration for my concerns.

So you’re correct, I didn’t reach out. But you surely noticed the changes to the thread since you chose to try and recreate my posts, and I think communication is a two-way street. This is your game that you are running, and you are the authority in the case of this game. If you were so bothered you that you felt the need to try and restore the information immediately (when someone can’t even start a new game for year, per your ask), one might imagine as the person in charge of the game, you might reach out rather than start recreating and changing things as the first course of action. It would have been much less work to just send me a message first.

As a side note, I noticed you pulled the exact maps that I had previously posted that I had come across during research but without attribution of their source material, Angel’s Border. I know how seriously you take attribution.

If it means anything, I am communicating right now and I am still extremely uncomfortable. I have taken the first step to communicate, not the game runners. And I reiterate that I’m willing to return all of the information that was there previously, free for future use, if that is something you would like. I'm not asking for any action to be taken. I don’t want anything, but for you to consider how this can be handled better in the future and to consider improving your lines of communication as well.

[MurderWeasel]

I feel that there is a high likelihood that my state of the world would have been taken as information in a new set up even though there is a disclaimer that other materials need to have permission, especially with the term "verbatim," which would allow for paraphrasing. The materials I put together seems fairly important to the running of a future game, as evidenced by you trying to recreate them, even things that are not typically part of pre-game information like the classroom seating chart I made.

You are incorrect in your assumption, at least as far as anything I have anything to do with. It's possible that some hypothetical future member might have decided to run their own BRAU and plagiarized your post, at which point it would've been dealt with appropriately (by telling them to go get your permission or take it down). If someone were to make their own State Of The World, pulling their own information from the novel, that's really their business.

I made notes about the class seating arrangement based on the thread subtitle, as otherwise the omission might be confusing. I did not recreate a seating chart, but rather noted that the novel's information on the subject was inconsistent. You will perhaps note that the general skew of information present now is also rather different, with a heavier emphasis on the Japanese educational system and the real world context of the novel's social commentary. There's some overlap, but mostly I took the opportunity to consider information that would be good to have in the future and put it into practice with the benefit of hindsight.

This was also a thread that I started, containing mostly users posts from DerArknight and I, which you chose to repurpose (and delete the nice comment). I think the appropriate steps would have been to either start a new thread or ask me about the removed content since I said previously I would have restored it if there had been a discussion. For the record, I’m still willing to restore all of the information with the more detailed State of the World that I made during my reading, if that’s what you’d like, with full permissions for future use.

I'm a little confused here. The statement that you'd restore things was made in this thread yesterday, well after the changes to the information thread were made, so it would've been impossible to handle things differently in light of that.

re: restoring content, you're very free to do as you like. I'm sure that anyone who wants to run a BRAU in the future would be greatly appreciative of it. For my part, the version's done and I have no intention of running another.

I’ll concede that I didn’t communicate with you, because I am uncomfortable with the game runners and didn’t think my concerns would be addressed. I also didn’t think that the thread I started would be repurposed as it has been. In the past, staffers (Zee and Paige) have been dismissed without so much as acknowledgement for their hard work or even a public notice that they were no longer staff, so I didn’t feel that as just a normal user, I would be afforded consideration for my concerns.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I have to admit that I don't quite see what concerns you suspected would've been ignored, but the entire initial complaint is still pretty confusing to me given that it was made very clear that the only things we were offering were our own work.

Regarding staff departures, you may have forgotten, but we have never made explicit official acknowledgements of staff resignations or dismissals. This is a policy intended to allow staffers to leave on their own terms, as well as to avoid situations where it might be awkward for them or the community (as it could if, say, someone was removed from a position involuntarily). It's also how things were run on both Mini and Main until 2021 (in fact, our most recent staff departure predates Main starting to run farewell threads). When I stepped down from Main staff towards the start of V6, the only acknowledgement there was my own discussion of it. The same was true of both of your prior staff departures as well. It's somewhat confusing to me that a longstanding policy that both of us have been on both sides of for over a decade is now being read as evidence of a lack of care—especially when it comes to an AU that's not even administered by Mini Staff as a whole.

So you’re correct, I didn’t reach out. But you surely noticed the changes to the thread since you chose to try and recreate my posts, and I think communication is a two-way street. This is your game that you are running, and you are the authority in the case of this game. If you were so bothered you that you felt the need to try and restore the information immediately (when someone can’t even start a new game for year, per your ask), one might imagine as the person in charge of the game, you might reach out rather than start recreating and changing things as the first course of action. It would have been much less work to just send me a message first.

I think you're perhaps extrapolating much more intent here than exists. I wasn't especially bothered by the removal, and the replacement certainly wasn't immediate. It's your right to take down resources you volunteered if that's what you want to do. It wasn't a whole lot of work to compile what I did—my brother worked in the Japanese educational system for three years, we were talking about that and the BR novel, and I went ahead and put together some of the details along with some further extrapolations of the alternate history presented in the setting.

As a side note, I noticed you pulled the exact maps that I had previously posted that I had come across during research but without attribution of their source material, Angel’s Border. I know how seriously you take attribution.

The thread currently includes maps from Angel's Border and also the Battle Royale novel—retouched to a small extent to remove some alignment issues where the original printing bled into the gutter. As there are only a couple of official BR Maps, they will somewhat inevitably show up. If you're concerned that I borrowed your specific images, I did not—I've been familiar with Angel's Border for a good while and have it in a couple of formats.

If it means anything, I am communicating right now and I am still extremely uncomfortable. I have taken the first step to communicate, not the game runners. And I reiterate that I’m willing to return all of the information that was there previously, free for future use, if that is something you would like. I'm not asking for any action to be taken. I don’t want anything, but for you to consider how this can be handled better in the future and to consider improving your lines of communication as well.

I'm also super uncomfortable here, for a number of reasons honestly, but am doing my best to communicate as well, and to interpret this as charitably as I can.

From where I'm sitting, I see that there was a misunderstanding which led to you taking down your posts. It's a shame that happened, and I hope you now better understand what was actually being offered. You've taken the first step in communication because you had a problem with the situation based on that misunderstanding; we didn't, so we didn't say anything.

If this was a case where we'd promised your work to someone else, that would obviously be wrong, and if it was a case where we'd implied that, then I'd definitely agree that that was a big issue. But in this situation, we in fact directly and explicitly said that anyone who wanted to use your stuff would have to talk with you about it, which to me still seems like the appropriate course of action.

[Carrion Queen]

So I’m not worth reaching out to in the event of an issue.

Thank you for letting me know.

[Carrion Queen]

After reaching out to staff and some discussion, the issue has been resolved. Thank you very much for being open and apologies for any undue stress.